Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

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Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by OtterThanJuly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:45 am

Oh, hi there!

Can anyone settle this one?

I have a record that was advertised as being 180 gram vinyl though I've weighed the actual record, sans packaging, on a posh digital scale and the disk weighs 126 grams. Using maths, I've worked out that 126 is significantly less than 180...

I've emailed the company responsible asking them to clarify and their reply was, "All packs were released with 180gm vinyl records, there were no 120gm records on sale."

Am I missing something? Is there some kind of conversion table between stated weight and actual weight? Or is it based on the amount of molten plastic needed to press the record? (assuming there is some quantity of run-off, I don't know) Or are they lying to me?

Anyone have any clue?!

x
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by roundbitsofplastic » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:59 am

So far as I'm aware, the actual record should weigh (approx) what is stated. Bog standard vinyl is 120g, so theone you have is much closer to a 'normal' vinyl weight. One way to see if yrscales are accurate (giving the label/pressing plant the benefot of the doubt) isto weighone of yr other LPs. Really though, you should really be able to see and feel the difference between a 120g and a 180g piece of vinyl, a 120 is way more wobbly than a 180.
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by Uncle Ants » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:23 am

Vinyl comes in a variety of weights - in the 50s and 60s 150g was the usual weight. In the 70s, post oil crisis 120g or 125g was usual. In the 80s (when they were hell bent on saving as much money as possible and also persuading you that vinyl was rubbish and you should be buying the newfangled CD at twice the ££s) they were often less, even as low as 95g - those are the real wobbly ones Ray, but yeah you're right, if it's genuniely 180g it'll be very stiff, if it's 125g there will be a little wobble to it if you do the Rolf on it.

If it's advertised as a 180g it should be 180g, it's as simple as that. However, another question is, how does it sound? The 180g thing is largely a con in my view to get people to cough up more for a supposedly better quality item . It's often a case of never mind the quality, feel the width though ie. to some extent it's a marketing gimmick. Sound quality is more down to the quality of mastering and the care taken in manufacture. I've got thin and wobbly ones that sound great and big thick 180grammers that sound shit.

What's the label btw?
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by linus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:48 am

I remember, for whatever reason, dej jam used to use ridiculously lightweight vinyl and the sound often suffered as a result

it wasn't all beer and skittles back in the day

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by Uncle Ants » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:56 am

fogofideas wrote:I remember, for whatever reason, dej jam used to use ridiculously lightweight vinyl and the sound often suffered as a result
Part of the problem is that a record company that is happy to issue ridiculously lightweight vinyl may also be perfectly happy to issue shitty sounding records and take no care over their mastering - or put another way - they may have sounded a bit shit whatever weight the vinyl was.

The most ridculously lightweight record I own is a US issue of a First National Band record I got at the PDSA. It's on what was called RCA Dynaflex. It's so thin that if you hold it horizontally by the edge it bends downward - it's halfway to a being a flexidisc. Apparently the idea was that the Dynaflex records were so thin they couldn't warp. It's very disconcerting, but it actually sounds pretty good.
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by tonieee » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:57 am

fogofideas wrote:I remember, for whatever reason, dej jam used to use ridiculously lightweight vinyl and the sound often suffered as a result
Was that caused by the thickness of the vinyl or the quality of the vinyl used? My understanding of it is the same as Uncle Ants - the thickness doesn't affect the sound quality (but it would make it easier for them to get warped/broken). The sound quality can be affected by using low quality vinyl or recycled vinyl.

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by OtterThanJuly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:57 am

I mean, it's definitely noticeably lighter than other chunky pieces I have. The scales I used were proper digital counting scales they use at work so I would hope they're accurate! Unfortunately, the only record I can find which lists its weight on the sleeve is Cinerama's Disco Volante which is 220g. I'm off work currently so won't be able to check that as a reference until Friday.

Incidentally the record I've got issues with is the Bioshock soundtrack LP included in the Bioshock 2 set, so it's a faceless sinister mega-global corporation I'm dealing with rather than Dave at Confused Marmot Records of Hulme so I'm not going to hold back stirring shit if I'm right. I'm sure Dave would have noticed a discrepancy immediately anyway!

edit - the mastering on the record is abominable also. Side one is just over 20 minutes and side two a notch over 18 minutes, but each side has a massive run-out so I'd guess the "signal to noise" ratio is quite low... I'm no scientist, but it crackles like hell!
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by linus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:10 pm

tonieee wrote:
fogofideas wrote:I remember, for whatever reason, dej jam used to use ridiculously lightweight vinyl and the sound often suffered as a result
Was that caused by the thickness of the vinyl or the quality of the vinyl used? My understanding of it is the same as Uncle Ants - the thickness doesn't affect the sound quality (but it would make it easier for them to get warped/broken). The sound quality can be affected by using low quality vinyl or recycled vinyl.
ahhh, well probably the quality then, if you held it up to the light it looked translucent and sort of brown

'translucent and sort of brown' is the name of my new album, interestingly enough, which will be available on all formats... including leather

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by Uncle Ants » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:14 pm

tonieee wrote:The sound quality can be affected by using low quality vinyl or recycled vinyl.
... and by making shit records.

About the record in question though ... I'd make a fuss ... just for the fun of it.
OtterThanJuly wrote:edit - the mastering on the record is abominable also. Side one is just over 20 minutes and side two a notch over 18 minutes, but each side has a massive run-out so I'd guess the "signal to noise" ratio is quite low... I'm no scientist, but it crackles like hell!
Then it'd likely sound crap whatever they pressed it on yes.
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by soft revolution » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:19 pm

OtterThanJuly wrote:Oh, hi there!

Can anyone settle this one?

I have a record that was advertised as being 180 gram vinyl though I've weighed the actual record, sans packaging, on a posh digital scale and the disk weighs 126 grams. Using maths, I've worked out that 126 is significantly less than 180...

I've emailed the company responsible asking them to clarify and their reply was, "All packs were released with 180gm vinyl records, there were no 120gm records on sale."

Am I missing something? Is there some kind of conversion table between stated weight and actual weight? Or is it based on the amount of molten plastic needed to press the record? (assuming there is some quantity of run-off, I don't know) Or are they lying to me?

Anyone have any clue?!

x
Maybe that was it's pre cooked weight ;)

Paper is measured in grammes per metre squared so maybe they use the same for vinyl. I'll just set up a quick maths corner:

The ratio between 126 and 180 is 7:10. If there's the same ratio between the area of the record and one metre then it's a 180g/m^2 record and they measure vinyl weight per metre squared.

A 12" vinyl is 30cm in diameter, so that's 15cm radius. Area = pi r^2 soooo, that's 706 cm sq

1m = 10000cm squared

Eeex. It looks like the ratio is there, but only if I'm out by a factor of 10 - it's 7:100

At the risk of turning this into a maths thread, help! Am I barking up the wrong tree or is there a maths error?
And by me, I mean, Flexo.

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by Uncle Ants » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:23 pm

soft revolution wrote: Am I barking up the wrong tree or is there a maths error?
You're barking up the wrong tree, your maths is good ... the guys at the record company are clueless twits ... IMO of course.
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by soft revolution » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:24 pm

soft revolution wrote:
OtterThanJuly wrote:Oh, hi there!

Can anyone settle this one?

I have a record that was advertised as being 180 gram vinyl though I've weighed the actual record, sans packaging, on a posh digital scale and the disk weighs 126 grams. Using maths, I've worked out that 126 is significantly less than 180...

I've emailed the company responsible asking them to clarify and their reply was, "All packs were released with 180gm vinyl records, there were no 120gm records on sale."

Am I missing something? Is there some kind of conversion table between stated weight and actual weight? Or is it based on the amount of molten plastic needed to press the record? (assuming there is some quantity of run-off, I don't know) Or are they lying to me?

Anyone have any clue?!

x
Maybe that was it's pre cooked weight ;)

Paper is measured in grammes per metre squared so maybe they use the same for vinyl. I'll just set up a quick maths corner:

The ratio between 126 and 180 is 7:10. If there's the same ratio between the area of the record and one metre then it's a 180g/m^2 record and they measure vinyl weight per metre squared.

A 12" vinyl is 30cm in diameter, so that's 15cm radius. Area = pi r^2 soooo, that's 706 cm sq

1m = 10000cm squared

Eeex. It looks like the ratio is there, but only if I'm out by a factor of 10 - it's 7:100

At the risk of turning this into a maths thread, help! Am I barking up the wrong tree or is there a maths error?
Actually, thinking about it this is completely the wrong tree. I think I just wanted to use maths without thinking of the problem in the first place (see also the chapter on economics).

Does 180g include the corners if the record was pressed as a square?
And by me, I mean, Flexo.

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by Uncle Ants » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:24 pm

soft revolution wrote: Does 180g include the corners if the record was pressed as a square?
no
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by OtterThanJuly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:33 pm

soft revolution wrote:Paper is measured in grammes per metre squared so maybe they use the same for vinyl.
Ha, I've worked for a print company for years but never understood what GSM meant until just now... I'm learning about work while I'm on "holiday"!
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by roundbitsofplastic » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:57 pm

soft revolution wrote:
Paper is measured in grammes per metre squared so maybe they use the same for vinyl.
Not that I want to star in Eurosceptic Corner, but don't we call them Gramsin these isles? That's the 2nd time in 2 days I've seen someone write grammes, I'm sure that's not right. Well, not Uk Enlgish, anyway.

EDIT

Nop,e I'm totally WRONG, I'm also a horrific cunt.
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by Damian » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:10 pm

OtterThanJuly wrote:Oh, hi there!

Can anyone settle this one?

I have a record that was advertised as being 180 gram vinyl though I've weighed the actual record, sans packaging, on a posh digital scale and the disk weighs 126 grams. Using maths, I've worked out that 126 is significantly less than 180...

I've emailed the company responsible asking them to clarify and their reply was, "All packs were released with 180gm vinyl records, there were no 120gm records on sale."

Am I missing something? Is there some kind of conversion table between stated weight and actual weight? Or is it based on the amount of molten plastic needed to press the record? (assuming there is some quantity of run-off, I don't know) Or are they lying to me?

Anyone have any clue?!

x
Make a fuss. I've just (out of interest) weighed 'Lets Get Out Of This Country' which was advertised as 180 when I bought it. It is. In fact it's 193g, not that that matters overly. But yeah, if i can weigh mine on household scales and get a reasonable readout, then your fancy scales aren't going to make a mistake.

I'd annoy them, just because you can.

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by OtterThanJuly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:19 pm

I'm doing just that now! Thanks for the measurement btw :)
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by OtterThanJuly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:13 pm

Hmmm. I have a reply saying there is "a difference between the UK and International" versions of the Collector's Edition, though looking at the respective listings on Amazon dot-com and dot-co-uk, there appears to be no difference with regards to the vinyl.

They've asked me to confirm which region I am in - clearly my dot-co.uk email address isn't enough of a giveaway - and for my address, so I wonder what will happen now...
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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by linus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:18 pm

where did you buy this from and was the vendor advertising it as being 180gsm or is it because you're aware the record label released it (apparently) at 180gsm? you might find you need to query it with the vendor if they were advertising something as being one thing rather than another... rather than the record label

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Re: Attn: Vinyl geeks who understand weights and measures

Post by OtterThanJuly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:16 pm

I got it from HMV but it was part of a box-set, along with the game itself, art book, posters and (ironically) a replica vinyl CD soundtrack for Bioshock 2. All the advertising and press-releases specified 180gram so I would assume this to be binding...
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